Terrain mapper seeks advice

[Ibex]

I am working on a terrain map for Unreal, based on the technique I developed for UT2k4
See example pic of the UT2k4 map here
http://www.beyondunreal.com/content/potd_images/uskaarjpromo1.jpg

I want to get the S3TC texture use right, I read through what I could find about S3TC texture use here on Old Unreal, and over at Unreal Wiki
http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/S3TC

What is the most up to date info, what is your recommended way to do it so packs do not conflict? Is it possible?
I read a special tool is needed, is this tool available yet?

[Jâçkrâßßit]

Just a quick response from what I know (Diehard will have a much better response)

I do know that if you want to create your own terrain texture pack in S3TC and have it network compatible for other players, you will have to send your pack to Diehard (www.unrealtexture.com) and he will gladly make it net compatible for you.

For off line tests, you should be able to make your own textures and test the smaller versions in the editor. Here is some tutorials that might assist you:

http://celticwarriors.net/Website/Techpages/Editing/Photoshop/BMPSavingOptions/BMPSavingOptions.htm

and definitely take a look at this:

http://celticwarriors.net/Website/Techpages/Editing/Photoshop/DDSSavingOptions/DDSSavingOptions.htm


If I were going to map with my own textures, I would first map with the smaller package and then apply the S3TC in-game tests after the mapping process is complete

[GreatEmerald]

S3TC are client-sided (don't apply them!), so you should provide only the normal textures with your map.
If there are any textures that don't have S3TC anywhere, you'll have to create that and simply link to it in the readme file or somewhere. They shouldn't cause any conflicts as it is only client-sided, the servers never check if the textures are the same at the client side.

[Ibex]

ok, thanks

[DieHard SCWS]

Lol thats coincidental, been working on your prefabs last night to add them to the new site Ibex(and noticed your site was gone.....)

[url=http://www.unrealtexture.com/Unreal/Website/Downloads/3DEditing/PreFabBrushes/Decoration/Decoration.htm]Prefabs Decoration[/url]

On the bottom of that page


Luckelly i had everything stored.


But yeah its pretty much what the others already told, the Mertgertool is to my super regret not public due to the fact it can be abused very easelly to create cheats with it (it creates after all netcompatible packages) But yeah it would have been one om greatest wishes to have the thing public, but it cant  


The thing i am always willing to do is turning the normal package into an S3TC version. I am working on a tutorial and submit pages on the site, but they aint done yet. But bassically its this:

Create all your textures in a size 2048 x 2048 x 2048 DPI (the 2048 DPI is for making the packages more easy to handle. Cause it enables you to bulk batch textures if needed).

For a normal package, scale them down to the appropriate size and add that to a normal package and indeed save the BMP files exactly as the setting pictures Jackrabbit gave above.

And make sure they are not accidentelly added in true color, cause that will ruin the S3TC packages for online playing(skating player glitch).



At the same time save the textures also as dds file according the settings in the picture. For relative sizes between normal and S3TC textures you can check these pages:

[url=http://www.unrealtexture.com/Unreal/Website/Downloads/Textures/LowEnd/LowEndSpecs/LowEndSpecs.htm][glow=yellow,2,300]Low End Specs[/glow][/url]


[url=http://www.unrealtexture.com/Unreal/Website/Downloads/Textures/HighEnd/HiEndSpecs/HiEndSpecs.htm][glow=yellow,2,300]Hi End Specs[/glow][/url]



For making you maps, mods etc you simply need to use the normal package, as said above, the S3TC textures are purelly for clientsided player use. Not for mapping, not for server, there you gotta use the normal package.


Preferably add the textures to groups, like wall, floor etc, and never to the root of the packages. This will ruduce human errors while working on the packages for S3TC. You can, but it is unwise to do so.

You have to store the dds files in the same way the package is assembled, while groupnames will be the folder name. When done you gotta sent me the normal utx package along with the entire folderstructure containing the dds files.


Bassically its mapping as usual, create your map, and create the texture packages for it, and texture your map with those. And at the same time you also create a dds counterpart completelly outside the editor. And as seen in the pages you can create 2 S3TC packages, since not all people have 256 or 512 mb vidoecard...........
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[DieHard SCWS]

Obviously take also good care that the groupnames are exact. If a groupname in the package is called Floor, than the foldername should be Floor and not floor.


If such an error is present, the Mergetool simply will skip this folder since its not present in the package :-? The same aplies to texture names, if the name is incorrect with the texture in the normal package it will be skipped and thereby remain a normal indexed texture.
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[Ibex]

A few more questions...

What is the maximum pixel size an 8bit texture can be without causing server problems?
Is 512x512 really as high as Unreal can go for online play use?

If only the skybox used imported true color .bmp textures without S3TC, would that still cause the skating glitch online?

[DieHard SCWS]

The skating player can ruin anything you make. If the glitch does surface than you do have a problem and wont be able to use them online. It is exactly this problem that ruins the Unreal Tournament Retexturing Project.


Once the problem is build in, it cannot be removed anymore, at least not after release. As far as i can see, Epic run into the same problems as i do, which is very poor assembled UT packages. They almost all contain actual technical errors, which can only be fixed if the package would be rereleased.


Also the Mergertool, like the tool Epic used, seems to have big problems handling packages that contain procedural textures. The oné package can be Merged just fine, while the other packages fail to wotk properly and either gave errors like complete black, red, green, blue surfaces on procedural textures, or they crash the game all together.

I would not take any risk there. If you assemble a package for S3TC purposes than i stil advise this highly:

- Use only normal correct indexed textures.
- Use animations that ends with _A01, _A02, etc
- Mask textures during import and not afterwards.


Never use:

- Procedural textures in the normal package, add those to a seperate package.
- Never add any 24 bit or wrong indexed textures to the normal package.
- Alpha blending for DDS files above 1 bit Alpha(1 bit, black and white is the current limit)

What is the maximum pixel size an 8bit texture can be without causing server problems?
Is 512x512 really as high as Unreal can go for online play use?

As a matter a fact i used textures up to 1024 (as epic also does) in the SGC map, and this wont cause any problems. nor for S3TC nor for normal D3D, software or OpenGL, Glide players.

Take a look at this page:

http://www.unrealtexture.com/Unreal/Website/TextureDatabase/Unreal/Skaarj/Skaarj_Deco.htm

The third texture (Aa_clw) was added by Epic in 1024 x 512, so dont worry about the size.  Anything up to 1024 is possible, and specifically Sofware and OpenGL can render those in full size without any problem, D3D will downrender them to 256 i believe.


Its not so much the size does matter  ::)  :P But more the total texture load in a map. I think when the SGG map is done i can calculate what the total amount of texture surface is that an averidge player can handle(his videocard that is) That map pushes everything to the very limit, and tests for normal players ruled out any problem on that end. You can add alot to a map, that part is clear to me.


On the S3TC end you have to be more carefull, still, my videocard is only 128mb and does pull the texture load of the SGC map, and fully loaded, the map draws some 2048- 4096 Mb of uncompressed textures in memory, go figure lol

This is also the reason why UT has an averidge is 256 pixel textures compared to Unreal who has 128 pixel on averidge. In 2000 they realised that the same engine and newer cards could pull that easelly.

If only the skybox used imported true color .bmp textures without S3TC, would that still cause the skating glitch online?

I have never really tested it, but thats were the above story came in, but what would be the purpose to begin with, why not add those too as S3TC ?



Side note, you are aware of the fact you can use MergeDXT to add S3TC textures yourself to a package in UT ? I am saying this because in that way you have all controll yourself.

The S3TC packages from my end do have an edge though, the S3TC packages can be updated at any given time, even after the release, and multiple S3TC packages can be created to gain the maximum for the S3TC users, being a High End package and a Low End package. In addition to that, S3TC packages have no limit in size, since they are never downloaded from a server.

Current High End packages(8 packages) for the SGC map are 669 Mb in total. You dont wanna download that during a mapswitch..........


In any case if you want me to handle the package, dont take any risk, dont add any 24 bit to it and add procedural textures to a seperate package. The last thing you want is weird errors that makes you map/project useless online.........
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